Ariel Louwrier - Entrepreneur & Provider of Research Tools

Ariel Louwrier

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[00:00:28] Don Davis PhD, MBA: Hello and welcome to Life Science Success Podcast. My name is Don and I'm a consultant in life. Sciences and I'll be your host. I'm the president and principal of 52 80 Life Sciences Consulting, and our focus is helping clients that are trying to scale with services that help them succeed. One example would be, if you're trying to implement metrics in your business, you should go into our website and download our OKR guide and my free course on OKRs.

I also wanted to mention that I'll be at Bio in the Bayou next week, [00:01:00] and I'll be there streaming interviews. So please watch for announcements for broadcasts around the 2nd of November today my guest is Ariel Laurie. Ariel focuses on entrepreneurship, operations, international sales, marketing, m and a research and patents.

Welcome

[00:01:18] Ariel Louwrier: Ariel. Thank you very much, and thank you for having me here.

[00:01:23] Don Davis PhD, MBA: Yeah. Thanks so much for for being a guest today. So can you tell the listeners just a little bit about yourself?

[00:01:30] Ariel Louwrier: Sure. My, my background is best described as a mess. I was I was born in Germany and I grew up in Germany. In Belgium, did my schooling in the uk and I got tired of it.

Jacked it all in and traveled around the world for a year until I ran out of money in the United States about a year later. And also met my wife. That also increased the expenditure level . And then I was invited to postdoc at [00:02:00] the Massachusetts Institute of Technology where I stayed for.

Because I stayed in the US for about 18 18 months or thereabouts, and then returned back to the UK cause it was the only other country at that time. We're talking about the early to mid nineties that had a vibrant biotechnology industry. And started working there for about eight years before I was recruited to run.

A small biotechnology company on literally the side of the globe on Vancouver Island in British Columbia, Canada, which was frankly, I didn't even know where it was when they first contacted me. That company was sold and I started my own company, Stress Market about 14 or 15 years ago now, and I have stayed here ever.

[00:02:47] Don Davis PhD, MBA: Oh, very nice. And the one thing that I, that, if anybody gets a chance to check out Ariel on LinkedIn one of the very first things that comes up on his LinkedIn profile, we were just talking [00:03:00] about this as well, is that he's a karate instructor and I think he's the first one interviewed on the show.

And I guess what interested you in getting started with.

[00:03:10] Ariel Louwrier: It's an interest I had as, as a kid. I tried judo for a while. When I first got to Belgium, I didn't speak a word of French, so I didn't really a, have a clue what they were asking me to do half the time. I started crotty a little bit later on.

I think I was 16 or so un until the final days of school. And then that dropped out for a while at university and then I started it up again through a series. Bizarre coincidences. When I went, when I started my PhD, and as it turned out we had a lecturer in international relations and conflict resolution, which was nowhere near where I was.

I was in the biochemistry department who was already at that time an accredited fifth and martial arts in. [00:04:00] And in fact, many Dans and many martial arts, and his name is Steven Chan. And he took on the mantle of starting a small club, and there was about three or four of us at the, at its genesis, a bunch of guys getting together in a hall at the same time as I started, there was a first year engineer undergraduate whose name is Wayne Otto.

And over time he became the most decorated martial arts fighter of all time and is currently the. The Olympic and national martial arts instructor for CRO in in Norway. Oh, wow. So that's become his life. So we had this amazing traditional side of cro as well as this extraordinary fighter that could show us the ropes.

And within two to three years it's became the most successful university club in the country. A legacy, which it continued well past my time, 10 or 15. [00:05:00] And it still has a strong showing and I still go back from time to time. If I'm in, in London, I'll train with my old instructor who's now about 70 and is now a 10th dad.

So he is gone as high as he can go. Wow. And I decided some time ago here after teaching in other clubs for 10 or 15 years that I wanted to do my own thing. And I started my own club up about seven or eight years ago with a break for covid and knee surgery. Ah.

[00:05:26] Don Davis PhD, MBA: Wow. That could be a real challenge I would imagine with with all the stuff that you do in karate as well.

And yeah, we used to have a pastor in one of the churches that I went to that was the, he was our local instructor. And so we'd go to lessons actually in the church, which was, you hear this thing of conflict resolution and karate instructor. Pastor at the church and karate leader. It's where my ti my mental tie went to was.

It seems like there's something there [00:06:00] that they have something to work on as well.

[00:06:03] Ariel Louwrier: Absolutely, and I find that, kids generally and people of all ages respond to these things so well. And certainly, I've got three boys. I taught them all from an early age.

They haven't necessarily stayed in it just given the uncertainties of the world. And as a parent, I'm much, much happier now knowing that they can react to a difficult situation than if I hadn't done that. And we also do, or I do usually as fundraisers, but not necessarily self-defense courses for.

For folks and for women and so forth. And a lot of those things tend to be rather counterintuitive. You do things that you wouldn't think that you would necessarily do for a situation and people enjoy themselves. It's a bit of fun and it keeps you fit.

[00:06:55] Don Davis PhD, MBA: Yeah. Absolutely. And then you mentioned just a second ago that you're the [00:07:00] president and CEO of Stress Mark Biosciences.

What does stress mark.

[00:07:05] Ariel Louwrier: Stress Mark started as a frankly an antibody company. What we do is make research tools. We don't, we're not in the diagnostic space. We are not in the therapeutic space. So we're not curing anybody of anything. What we're doing is we're providing those tools that allow researchers to, to do their research effectively.

It's a little bit akin to the idea of a gold rush. If the gold rush is drug discovery, for instance, and we're making the best pales. Picks shovels possible for those researchers to to do their work. So whether they fail or whether they succeed, doesn't matter as long as they keep working. That's that's the the idea.

The better the tools the more validated they are the the more likely we are to succeed. And we started. [00:08:00] Generating antibodies early on, but we or I should really take ownership. I probably get the gold medal for starting a company at the worst possible time in the last hundred years, which was probably like three months before the the financial crash.

But we got through that. And, we had to change our business plan just so many other companies. But. We expanded our portfolio after that into different types of research tools, including some proteins as well as a small molecule portfolio, which are often failed drugs, but they have certain impacts in research settings that can be very useful.

And then finally we also started making some more complicated assays and as an example, one. Best selling ones actually is an assay that detects the the damage to our dna. For instance of a, if you were conducting some sort of a trial whereby you [00:09:00] had smokers for instance, whereby, their brain and all sorts of free radicals your DNA gets damaged.

We tend to be very good at fixing these things. So we repair and the little bits, the leftovers from that repair process is just excreted out in your urine. So it's very easy to sample, to get hold of, it's not blood or anything. And rather easy to detect. So that's, for instance, one of the sorts of tools that we do now, you might wanna impact that.

Some sort of regime or in introduction of the drug or something, and then you might see differences in, in the outcome. So those are the kind of tools that, that that we make. And then about, I guess seven years ago or so we went sideways. Not sideways in a bad way. From a product portfolio perspective, what we were seeing was, large and often Government aided entities in China, really coming into the [00:10:00] antibody space, flooding the market with all sorts of stuff.

A lot of it wasn't great, it's still a numbers game. And to a certain extent we couldn't compete. We were aiming to do things in a more complex space where, which is, these protein preparations, which is. Lot more sort of science and black magic involved, if you like in some of this stuff.

And we were asked by a researcher to make a very specific product that is used as a. As a tool to generate a Parkinson's disease model in cells. And so we tried to we made it look rather easy, to be honest, . And so you take these discreet building blocks of one particular protein and you literally grow them into something that looks like a string or a fibrile.

And we did we gave it to them and said, Here you go. And they said, Oh, great. Thank you. It doesn't. Oh, and yeah, that was that [00:11:00] was my reaction. My reaction was somewhere between, Huh. And do you know what you're doing? And of course they were right and they presented us with the data. And I thought, this is very curious cause I'm a protein by chemist, by trade, and that shouldn't happen.

And again, a few months later. So we think we're discussing earlier I had a eureka moment and realized, What we might have done, which was a typical thing that you would do in biochemistry. And we realized that depending on what the environment was, you could generate quite different strings or fibrils that would have wildly different properties.

From each other. And it could be in short term experiments, really very black and white, like death and life, very different. And we then realized also that the literature did not support this at all. The literature really dealt with one particular type [00:12:00] only and that to 99% or so, and that most research had no idea that there was more than one potential.

Depending on how you make these things now, often they're not actually interested in the fibrile themselves. They're interested in what happens downstream. We're making a model here after all. Sure, but of course what happens in our brains, is rather important. We began to show that there were variations.

And from that point on, I also realized nobody else in the world was doing this. There wasn't a single entity worldwide, aside from perhaps, things that we don't know about were Bess. Manufacturing from one company to a CRO or a clinical research organization or so and we jumped onto that bandwagon and put our foot down on the metal and just started researching and developing new products that fit into.

Neurodegenerative diseases as a whole. So Alzheimer's specific ones [00:13:00] for Parkinson's, specific ones for ALS and others. And this was of, great value, particularly to pharmaceutical companies. Sure. And the fact that we had generated different types Even more valuable to them cuz they came back and said, Thank you for saving us three years of work

Whereas on the academic side it was much more muted because all of a sudden we were asking questions, what have you been publishing for the last 10 years? Not always popular. Because it depended very much on, on the type of construct. And since then, we've done all sorts of other variations on the themes and new ones and mixed versions.

Evens cuz you know, the. Loaded, absolutely loaded with stuff and different types of proteins and so forth. So sometimes things will interate, they'll mix and. They can even seed each other. It, it gets pretty complicated. But we're able to generate these tools and sometimes even [00:14:00] make them visual in the sense that we can put tags on them that you can follow.

So you can see where this thing is actually going in cells or in the brain, or wherever, whatever type of experimentation you're doing. So that's the flagship. Now and we've really generated a brand now that is recognized in the neurodegenerative disease research space. Even though we started in something really quite different, antibody company aimed at, as the name might suggest, the cellular stress space, particularly cancer.

But now the flagship and the efforts are very much in the neuro neurodegenerative disease tool. And do

[00:14:42] Don Davis PhD, MBA: you ever do work? So you mentioned specifically drug companies for this, but the do you ever do work with diagnostics companies as well? As they're targeting different things for diagnostic, I would imagine that this could have application as well.

[00:14:58] Ariel Louwrier: We haven't to [00:15:00] date. It's not that we rule them out or anything it's just that they might. , they might use our tools, but because our tools are not they don't, we haven't done all the paperwork to get it, for instance, validated as a as a diagnostic. We're slightly, I guess we're parallel to that space, if you like.

The tools often are very similar except that one goes to that validation and, let's say five years and $10 million. It's not something I'm willing to do from my perspective. But we do work with service companies. , so for instance, clinical research organizations where they're trying to provide a service, whatever it is, and they need to generate the model.

They're pharma company that's outsourcing their work, can throw their drugs into whatever the model is and see what happens. So probably less so on the diagnostic side, although from time to time we're [00:16:00] probably, we've probably sold standards to them and so forth that we don't even know about.

Because sometimes you get these huge companies and they order something, you have no idea where it's going. You may not even know what country it's. Yeah.

[00:16:13] Don Davis PhD, MBA: So in addition to what you're doing now in, in terms of, Parkinson's and other degenerative de diseases, are you also still working on the cancer side as well or is it just a smaller portion of your business?

[00:16:29] Ariel Louwrier: I would say so it, it's. It's in, in part still some of the bread and butter of the business cuz it's very established. . And we also sell two other companies that resell our products. Okay. That's another model that exists here. Exists I guess in all business really, but. People don't talk about it very much, but it's, it is the backbone, in fact of many businesses, Walmart sure as heck doesn't make all those products right?

They come from somewhere else, even though they may have a Walmart product, a label on them, for instance. And the same goes for [00:17:00] anything else. So from that perspective, I would say probably roughly half of what we do is still in that cancer space, whereas the other half has really gone. Zero onwards to about just over half the business now, but it's purely additive, so it hasn't replaced.

The business is just new business. Okay.

[00:17:24] Don Davis PhD, MBA: And then the companies that normally come to stress, mark, are they, I guess what category do they fit in? Are they very early stage? Are they mid stage? Are they at any life cycle of a drug company? You mentioned large companies. So I know that's in the category.

Yeah. But just, curious, what does a customer look like whenever they come to you?

[00:17:48] Ariel Louwrier: Yeah. It's the whole ga. It's a single all the way from a single researcher who's thinking of starting up a company all the way to the largest [00:18:00] company in pharma companies in the world. The Pfizers, the Glaxo, the Regeneron, et cetera.

They all have a program now. They obviously have take Regeneron. They have established sales through existing drugs and so forth, and, do very well. But of course, they also have this pipeline Potential new drugs that they want to test and ultimately get into clinical trials, but there's this whole preclinical side to that to that cycle.

Sure. So you have to, you, first of all, I guess you do your in vitro work, essentially anything outside of a living system. Then you begin to introduce it into living systems, living cells. Then you might go into a road and trial, and then when you've done all your work.

And you've submitted your materials to the fda, you would think about clinical trials, the safety trial being the first thing in humans. So that's, quite easy to say that five to 10 years of work would go into that before you ever get into a clinical trial setting. [00:19:00] And. The big companies do that.

The the midsize the biotechs, the gen enzymes and bio biogens, which I'm not even sure why I'm calling them midsize, cuz they're not really, they're just not as big as the other guys. But all the way to, bespoke, what you might think of as a one trick pony. This is what they do.

They have one drug candidate and they're trying to see if push that through. So it really is the full cycle. In the same preclinical.

[00:19:33] Don Davis PhD, MBA: Very good. Yeah, it seems like there, I mean there's just so much work going on, with degenerative diseases right now. Just, I mean it was funny cuz I think it was one of the investor groups that actually come out and said last year was like one of the bigger sort of neurological investment years overall.

And it's just interesting to hear whenever, [00:20:00] we are still very much fighting cancer , and it feels that these other diseases also, need, very strong investment as.

[00:20:10] Ariel Louwrier: That, that's true. So there's been a number of things happening. Probably two main ones.

We had Covid, of course. That's not a mystery to anybody, but of course that technology was really set up initially to fight cancer, right? , that's, that was the idea. And then Covid came along, Hey, we can use this and it's faster, et cetera, et cetera. But realistically, I think we are seeing more and more.

Patent applications and so forth and research into the use of the RNA technology because what you can literally do is you can immunize somebody against their own cancer. Now, your own cells, your own body is switched off in terms of attacking itself for obvious reasons, right? Be dead in a hurry if that wasn't the case, right?

Which is why cancers are successful against us. But if you can find a small piece [00:21:00] of it that's a little bit different from what it's supposed to be and tell the immune system. And allow it to target that cancer very specifically then you can be very successful. So that's the great promise, ironically, of what's come out of this whole coronavirus situation.

It's not actually, I would argue Covid as such. It's probably, I think the cancer's at least going going forwards. And in terms of the neuro side, there's been some high profile drug failures and some successes. So the Au helm, I think it was called, where we had the situation where the food and drug administration actually said, Yes, we will authorize this.

But. Really following the rules. We always followed before different situation, a lot of criticism, but on the other hand does give the industry a boost to say, Look, there's some hope this does do something. And there is nothing [00:22:00] else. We have nothing. We don't have a thing really. And I'd say that with some experience my, I think everybody we know has, knows somebody else who's had a neurodegenerative disease of some type.

Sure. I'm no different. And we all know that the drugs that they take, frankly, whether they do something or not is not clear. They often. Even generated to deal with a neurodegenerative disease. And so you get, you end up with people taking all sorts of drugs that may or may not really work.

And, these things run their course. So the emphasis is not just anymore on curing the emphasis on, if you can delay something long enough that you know, something is slowed down to a significant degree than the quality of life side changes dramatically. And more importantly, I think.

Politicians and so forth, and people that are funding this research is the amount of monies that are then involved in having to [00:23:00] help these folks in their day. Anything from walking and getting groceries and going to the bathroom, everything right, goes down dramatically. So it from that perspective is very attractive.

But there's definitely an uptick in, in that area. And some of the monoclonal antibody technologies and so forth have definitely played into that. Into that realm.

[00:23:22] Don Davis PhD, MBA: Yeah. The Covid vaccine delivery, overall to me was one of those things where I was interviewed on a podcast, early on in Covid and was asked that question, how long is it gonna be before we have.

A vaccine. And I said look, if there's something else that's in the pipeline, maybe there's hope, between, now and in, in some, distant time. But if you look at the normal timeline for most of these vaccines, it's 10 plus years. So how much do you expect them to pull in the timeline of 10 years?

To [00:24:00] now and I, it's funny cuz I was working with a couple of different clients who had, potential candidates and they came along and they said, hey look, we think actually we have something here, that we just, need to run some additional tests to make sure.

And yeah, to me it's one of those. Things that as a, as an outsider, I am not a biochemist and by trade. And so I'm somebody just sitting on the sideline, just going, Man, this is ma amazing to watch watch science and what can be done and what's been learned already.

[00:24:40] Ariel Louwrier: Yes, I had a slight advantage.

I had a good, very good friend of mine that I worked with at MIT that had worked for Moderna early on. And Moderna is an X M I T company at least to some degree. The one of the founders was was a guy that actually our lab used to collaborate with [00:25:00] very famous scientist and . So I knew the technology beforehand and I think it was all really aimed at the cancer ideal, if you like.

. And regardless of where you stand on, yes, this was a good idea, or all the way down to it was unethical and whatever the data is in, there's a lot of information on it now because so many doses went out and so many people have taken them. So the data's there regardless. , on, on. How the human bodies reacted to these and effectively kept the ma vast majority of people out of hospital, which was of course the idea.

But I think going forward we are going to see, we've already seen some rather interesting and very promising areas from the cancer perspective, the cancer curing perspective with this CAR T technology, which is essentially doing something similar where you're enable. These T cells, these [00:26:00] cells that generate these antibodies to actually.

A cancer, whereas under normal conditions, they wouldn't be able to, and they're yours. It's not a funny little molecule that somebody's made in their garage Or that could kill you. It's actually your own immune system. And the immune system, if you consider everything you go through, life is ridiculously powerful.

Yeah. It's staggering what it does on a day to day basis. So it's probably the best way forward. So it, it's definitely probably the most exciting time I think. That we've had, with the exception perhaps, of, the early DNA technology in, in, in the early nineties the PCR that we've all got to know now, this polymerase chain reaction thing.

Yeah. And it's

[00:26:44] Don Davis PhD, MBA: fa it's funny that you say that because people that have listened to this podcast before, they will have heard me say this at as well. That, I just, I really. Feel like we are at a phenomenal time for science because you can see so much and [00:27:00] you can do so much. We still have a lot more to learn

It's not we know everything about one car T-cell therapy and it's effectiveness. Sometimes it's too effective. And then nk I'll. Therapy, similar sort of thing. Lots of people working on that. I see all the advances with CRISPR and, stuff that people are working on there.

It's ju it is just an amazing time for I believe life sciences, which brings me more or less to my next question for you is, how did you get involved in life sciences and what is it that more or less keeps you energized about this?

[00:27:43] Ariel Louwrier: The first part of that question is easy to answer.

I was good at chemistry. I was good at biology in high school. I didn't know which one to pursue, so I figured living systems would be. The way to go. I my father was a scientist as well. He was a [00:28:00] chemist. I'm unlikely to reach his heights. He worked for a Nobel Prize winning lab. The Calvin, he worked for Professor Calvin, and you may be familiar with the Calvin Cycle and photosynthesis Sure.

And so forth. But he came down with with Alzheimer's, actually died this year. I've known too many people with these diseases and it just keeps me energized and I know that knowing what we do, because we do this day in and day out, we make these materials, we make these tools. We know more about them than anybody else.

At least from a commercial perspective, I don't, I can't throw myself into the realms of research labs at private research labs or something. So as a result of that, I think we can carve up or carve off time that is valuable to the folks that are actually doing the drug discovery.

And frankly, it makes me feel good that we have an impact and or when we talk to these labs on the folks in there, and sometimes, we've had conference calls [00:29:00] with 30 people across three, four different countries and, the feedback is generally very positive. And it's just, look, thanks for sharing this, because it really does save us a lot of time.

Yeah. Very good. And it's, yeah, it's a feel good factor. I. Yeah.

[00:29:20] Don Davis PhD, MBA: So there are three questions that I like to ask every guest, and we touched on one of them here, but the first one is what's in, what inspires you?

[00:29:30] Ariel Louwrier: Yeah, I think for me it's generally how people react to adversity because it it's the one thing that I've always felt I've seen executives and so forth get tremendous accolade.

But during times when you could almost not set a foot wrong the dot kobo is almost like a superlative of that, where you could quite literally take a goat, stick it on a table and say, Hey, give me some money, and somebody would've done there. There's no skill [00:30:00] in that but dealing with.

The world that we live in, which has really been changed since nine 11, whether it's nine 11, whether it's the pandemic, whether it's whether swine flu at the time with the financial crisis. We have all these things thrown at us that really have an impact and a big impact, and a lot of companies go to the wall.

So for me, it's how do, how well do people respond? Not to the good days, but to the difficult ones. Yeah. Very

[00:30:28] Don Davis PhD, MBA: good. And then secondly, what concerns you?

[00:30:34] Ariel Louwrier: I think I would just, so as a direct sort of follow on from that, one of the things we have going now is Europe is a war again, or parts of Europe, art war, and as a European that really grew up under the banner of the European Union, I do believe in this solidifying of economic ties, literally binding people together.

So they almost can't go to war even if they want to. And I believe it works [00:31:00] has worked rather well. And My concern is how this happened in the first place. But more so what? Where people are getting their information from. We, we've gone from it doesn't matter whether it's science has actually probably been less affected perhaps with the exception of some of the things that have been said by politicians in recent years.

There are. People getting their information on World Affairs from TikTok, . Yeah. That, that frightens me, That concerns me because there's plenty of well-meaning people that don't necessarily have the education or the means or whatever to, to to know what's going on in the world.

And then these easy to access platforms can, I think, cause a lot of.

[00:31:49] Don Davis PhD, MBA: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that you say that because I typically have referenced a couple of different things. One, I [00:32:00] remember as I was getting ready to graduate with my mba during the graduation ceremony the person that was speaking, came up and just said, look, I know as you're leaving this education, most of you, a good portion of you and I wanna say it was like greater than 90% of the.

Population that was there will never pick up another book in their lifetime. And I just thought, how terrifying is that? Because if all of the information that you get is either from the television or now TikTok, it's pretty terrifying. That you. You don't use some level of scientific decision making in your life to say, do I really believe this?

Or do I want to go test this theory and see whether or not if this is true or not. And the other unfortunate thing is that I feel like any sort of belief that you have you can validate it on the internet anyway. [00:33:00] Say that the earth is flat. And I'll bet you I could find lots of websites to validate that theory even though, I don't believe it.

But it's one of those things where, you know I hear people say that you're allowed to have your own belief and believe what is true. And it's, I don't believe that. I think what's true is true and. Able to be proven and you should be able to walk that back. But I, there's a level of just.

I I guess just people that, that don't test things enough in the world now, that, that would make your concern a reality .

[00:33:39] Ariel Louwrier: But we have seen a walk back in terms of certain what we take for granted in the west. These, these freedoms and so forth. You've seen whether it's China, Russia, other places where there was some real flow of information, but it.

This hardening [00:34:00] of the shell that surrounds these countries that, makes it more difficult not impossible, but more difficult, especially for average folks to, to to get information. And we also often make the assumption if we haven't been there before, that they live the same way we do.

And in some cases that's true. In other cases it really isn't true. They don't necessarily have access, they may not have a computer in the house, et cetera. Yeah.

[00:34:28] Don Davis PhD, MBA: Yeah. So true. And then lastly, what excites you?

[00:34:32] Ariel Louwrier: I can't help being excited about the future because I think for every difficulty there's a solution and, we have.

Speech to point where the biggest challenge probably for all of us is the planet. We can't ignore it anymore. And I think we did ourselves a disservice in a way when we talked about the word global warming, [00:35:00] because I'm not sure people thought, ooh. Okay. I spend my time in northern Holland and I freeze in the summer, so I don't have to go to Spain anymore.

And I'm being a bit facetious, but Right, generally what, who cares about one degree, but from the scientific perspective that nobody I think really bothered talking about is imagine the amount of energy. That is involved in a one degree change across the planet. Yeah. And what that means for winds and for depressions and cold weather as it is for hot weather.

And so forth. These amounts are stupendous and of course we're seeing increased hurricanes and highs and lows and what have you. But I think we've. Figured it out. And ironically, I do wonder whether this situation that we have in Europe is actually going to really accelerate by.

For the worst reasons, the the [00:36:00] real implementation of green call it green or carbon neutral energies, because they've actually come quite far. I had a bird's eye view into this as a kid because my father was actually working. He was the funder of the European renewable energy section for the eu.

And early on when I was a kid, you'd be lucky if you got one or two. Of the nation's grid, and now we're talking 10 times that sure. The tens, twenties, and 20 fives. So it is doable and if this pushes us into a better place, then maybe that's the silver lining. Oh, very

[00:36:38] Don Davis PhD, MBA: nice. Ariel, thank you so much for joining me.

I greatly appreciate it. And we will have all the links for Stress Mark and how to find Stress Mark Biosciences as well online on the page after the interview. So thanks so much for being here.

[00:36:55] Ariel Louwrier: Oh, thank you for having me.

[00:37:00]